2025-01-22

Before we commence the very important constitutional business of nominating a Taoiseach, I wish to advise the House of what was agreed yesterday in the Business Committee on the speaking arrangements for prospective technical groups for today's sitting. It was agreed that the groups, as currently constituted, would be facilitated in the speaking arrangements for today, and this is without prejudice to decisions that will be taken following the completion of the submission process which I initiated last Friday on foot of concerns expressed by Members. I assure Members that I will act with the utmost impartiality and fairness on this matter, and that I will ensure complete transparency in any of the decisions made as Chair. I call on the Government Chief Whip, Deputy Hildegarde Naughton, to propose the arrangements for the constitutional business of the day.

I thank the Ceann Comhairle. It is proposed that the following arrangements shall apply to the business to be taken today: - The proceedings on the nominations for Taoiseach shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 1 hour and 20 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply thereto: - the allocation of time shall be as follows: - speeches of a proposer and seconder 5 minutes each; and - speeches by representatives of parties and the prospective technical groups who have not made a nomination 10 minutes per party or group; and - members may share time; - on the determination of any nominations for Taoiseach, the Dáil shall, unless it otherwise orders, stand suspended until either 5.30 p.m. or four hours after the conclusion of the proceedings on the nominations, whichever is the later; - the proceedings on the approval of the nomination by the Taoiseach of other members of the Government shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 1 hour and 30 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply thereto: - the order of speaking and allocation of time shall be as follows: - speeches by Taoiseach and Tánaiste 15 minutes each; - speeches by representatives of Sinn Féin, the Labour Party, the Social Democrats and the prospective technical groups 10 minutes per party or group; and - members may share time-----

That is a joke.

It is ridiculous.

----- - the proceedings on the motion re establishment of Select Committee on Subsidiarity (European Union Legislative Scrutiny) shall be taken as the last item of business without debate and any division claimed thereon shall be taken immediately; and - on the conclusion of the proceedings on the business outlined, the Dáil shall adjourn until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 5 February 2025.

That is not agreed.

It is absolutely not agreed.

Deputies might give me a chance to ask the question. I take it that the proposal is not agreed.

It is not agreed.

I propose we take brief statements, starting with Deputy Mary Lou McDonald.

It is astonishing, after weeks and weeks of haggling among the parties that proposed to form Government over who would get which job, and how much they could increase the respective allowance for their record number of Ministers of State, that we find ourselves meeting on the first day of the Dáil and the first action of Government is to propose a further two-week holiday. This is unacceptable. We all know the big issues that face people on the ground and the message to Government needs to be: "Get to work." There is no rationale, no excuse and no reason for further delay and for this two-week holiday. Second, the speaking arrangements outlined, or proposed, by the Government Whip underscore again a cynical and unprecedented ruse from Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael to place their Independent cronies - supporters of the Government - on the Opposition benches and to afford to them the same speaking rights as genuine parties of opposition-----

Hear, hear.

-----which, remember, are elected here by hundreds of thousands of voters to hold this Government to account and express the democratic wishes and desires of those people and communities. I have seen brazen actions by Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael in past Dáileanna and Governments but this takes the biscuit. Rather than agreeing to temporary measures which afford these Government TDs speaking rights as though they were members of the Opposition, this should have been called out from the get-go. The Ceann Comhairle said she will be independent and fair in her deliberations. What has been proposed today is anything but fair or independent and is completely unacceptable to those of us in Sinn Féin and, I believe, to the Opposition as a whole.

Hear, hear.

Hear, hear.

The next speaker is Deputy Duncan Smith from the Labour Party.

It needs to be said that at the Business Committee yesterday, all Opposition members registered their dissent to the arrangements and to the matter of the speaking rights for the technical groups. The proposal is for us to come back on 5 February, in two weeks. That proposal cannot proceed until we have resolved the issue of the technical groups' speaking rights. Notwithstanding what she said in her few words before we heard from the Government Chief Whip, I ask the Ceann Comhairle to state on the record of the Dáil that this is a temporary arrangement just for today - again, we dissent to it - and to acknowledge that there is deep division out there. Contrary to what the Tánaiste and incoming Taoiseach says, the public are angry about this.

Yes.

They are really angry about it. I would like the Ceann Comhairle to commit to a deadline as to when she will make an adjudication on the joint submission from the Opposition on this matter and to make a decision that is for the good of the entire Parliament and every Member of this House. We in the Opposition believe there is only one answer to that question.

Yes.

We move now to the Social Democrats and Deputy Gary Gannon.

I am not sure which absurdity to oppose first but I will start with the Government allowing itself another two weeks to avoid Dáil scrutiny, not answer questions and not be held to account in the traditional manner of this Parliament. The public will simply not stand for it. It is ludicrous and was opposed in the Business Committee. We need to demonstrate a little bit of leadership here. We all know the issues. The front of The Irish Times this morning tells us that Trump has removed the United States from international tax agreements. Is that not something the House should be able to discuss and understand? We are told that Ministers need time to settle into their briefs. That may be the case but we have a Taoiseach, a soon-to-be Taoiseach, a Tánaiste and a soon-to-be Tánaiste who are part of the programme for Government. Why can we not ask questions? When can we talk to the expected Minister for Finance about what our position is following events in America? It is absolutely ludicrous. The arrangements for the new Dáil technical groups undermine the very foundations of parliamentary democracy. The idea of parliamentary democracy is that governments make proposals, as the Government did with its programme for Government, and we present alternatives to them, if necessary. What the Government is doing now belies that very principle. It is unbecoming. We are off to an incredibly bad start in this Dáil. This is setting the tone for the next five years. That is from you, not from us. What we are asking for is that the basic tenets of democracy are upheld here. Instead, we have the Government wishing that people who developed their own programme for Government correct their homework. It is absolutely despicable.

We move to the technical groups. There will be one speaker per group. I call Deputy Peadar Tóibín.

Today, there are-----

Good man, Peadar.

-----thousands of children who are homeless-----

Please, Deputies.

-----and there are many children suffering pain from scoliosis waiting for operations. Today, many children will seek help with regard to their mental health but will be refused CAMHS treatment. Eighty-nine days will elapse between the last time we had consecutive Dáil business to the next time we have consecutive Dáil business. The excuse of the Government is that it has to bed down. Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael have been in government for ten years at this stage. Actually, Fine Gael is heading towards 19 years in government. The idea that they need to take two weeks off to bed down into these Departments is ridiculous. These issues are urgent. Show a little bit of urgency and ensure the Dáil is back and working next week.

The Deputy is in the technical group propping them up.

We move now to Deputy Boyd Barrett.

We are off to a farcical start in the new Dáil. To my mind, the last contribution really sums it up.

Deputies, please.

Deputy Tóibín is in a technical group with people who are actually in the Government and have undoubtedly gone along with this charade, which is going to mean that, effectively, we have had no Dáil for three months. This is at a time when hundreds of thousands of people out there need answers and action from the Government to address their housing situation and issues like disability. Hundreds of thousands of health workers have also balloted for industrial action because of the understaffing of the health service, while section 39 workers are balloting for industrial action because they are being treated so unfairly and unequally. Yet the Government wants more time off. Why will we not be discussing the programme for Government next week? There is no reason questions could not be answered on the programme for Government that has been negotiated for weeks. We have then taken the art of speaking out of the two sides of your mouth to a new and higher level. People are pretending to be Independent Deputies but are actually propping up Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. They are Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael in disguise and, in reality, want to be in the Government, supporting it, endorsing the programme for Government. They are writers of the programme for Government while they are then pretending to be in the Opposition. They are undermining not just the Opposition but the right of the people of this country to have a strong Opposition and to hold this Government to account. This is more stroke politics from Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael in disguise as Independent Deputies.

I thank the Deputy and call Deputy Michael Collins.

I wish the Ceann Comhairle well. I also wish all my colleagues well on their election to this new Dáil. It has been 15 weeks since an election was called and nine weeks since we had the election. It is scandalous, to be quite honest, when we have a housing crisis where 15,000 people are without homes and there is a health crisis with people on trolleys. This is happening year after year and time after time. We have a cost-of-living crisis. Ordinary farmers, because of an IT problem in the Department of agriculture, cannot get their payments. Now it is proposed that we take another two weeks off to do I do not know what. I would say the new Government was sorted and solved the day after the count in the general election. The parties knew exactly what way things were going. The numbers were added up and we knew where the jobs were going to go. Now, they want to take another two weeks out. It is shocking, to be quite honest. The public out there are furious about it. We can hear it in their voices, locally and nationally. It is an issue that must be resolved and we must have a Dáil sitting here next week, get back to business and deal with those people who are without homes or are lying on trolleys. On speaking time, I made it clear in the meeting of the Business Committee that Independent Ireland is totally opposed to what is being proposed. I know it is only a temporary situation today, but going forward it must be resolved. You cannot be on the inside and on the outside. We were very fair in the Business Committee because we said that people have a right to speak here. That technical group has a right to speak from within Government ranks but not from within the Opposition ranks. It cannot work both ways. I plead, therefore, with the Ceann Comhairle to come to the most sensible decision here and let democracy take its course in this country.

I thank the Deputy. I call the Government Chief Whip to respond to those contributions.

On the timings for this morning, every party gets ten minutes each. If people wish to propose and second someone for Taoiseach-----

That is not good enough. That is not fair.

-----then they can do it within their allocated time. Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil and every party and technical group has the same amount of time.

I thank the Chief Whip.

How can the-----

I am sorry, Deputy, excuse me.

How can the Government Chief Whip defend a situation where Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael-----

Deputy, please.

-----are getting 15 minutes each to speak, while Sinn Féin, which is larger than Fine Gael, the record should show, is getting ten minutes?

I thank the Deputy.

The Ceann Comhairle has said that she intends to be fair and impartial, but her first decisions are not fair or impartial. In fact, she has facilitated the situation where the only Dáil Deputy-----

Withdraw that.

Deputy, I ask you to resume your seat.

-----that she credited upon her election to the post, Deputy Lowry-----

Deputy-----

One of her first actions is to facilitate his charade for him and other members of the Government-----

Withdraw that.

-----where they are essentially backing a situation where they are supporting this charade.

Deputy, please resume your seat.

It is completely unfair and undemocratic. I must say I am really disappointed that the Ceann Comhairle is facilitating such a charade. It is completely unfair and undemocratic.

Deputy Carthy-----

I am really disappointed that you, a Cheann Comhairle, are facilitating such a charade.

-----I am actually going to address the contributions.

It is not acceptable at all.

Excuse me, Deputy. Please resume your seat.

I do not think it behoves the dignity of your office or this Dáil if we allow this charade to continue-----

Hear, hear.

-----as has been outlined today. It is absolutely not good enough.

Could you please resume your seat, Deputy?

A Cheann Comhairle, on a point of order.

Excuse me, Deputy.

A Cheann Comhairle, you read into the record earlier details relating to your decision.

I had not even given-----

We need to know when your decision is going to be made.

I have not been given the option to do it.

We need to know, because the Business Committee cannot even function and set up what is meant to be happening here in two weeks' time without that decision.

Excuse me, Deputy.

You also said in your letter you got two sets of advice. Which advice takes precedence? Was it the advice you got from the Clerk or the advice from parliamentary legal adviser? When it comes to the functioning of this Dáil, this is a huge decision. We were looking at other parliaments across the Irish Sea two years ago and laughing at the way in which they conducted their business. Let us make sure that this solemn Parliament in Ireland is not made a show of around the world, where we set a precedent where people who are part of the Government are sitting in opposition. What a bloody farce.

Hear, hear.

Thank you, Deputy. I ask for some decorum in order that I might answer what was put to me by your colleague earlier.

Hear, hear.

I reiterate what was said. I can give the House and its Members an absolute assurance that I will deal with the matter expeditiously. As the Deputy is aware, and as the Business Committee will have relayed to every Member of the House, there is a process in place. I invited submissions in order that it could be open, transparent and impartial. The closing date for those submissions is close of business today. Pending the vote on the Order of Business, we may or may not resume on 5 February, but I intend to deal with it expeditiously. It does not mean that I will not be dealing with it-----

A Cheann Comhairle, could you put a date on it, please-----

Respect the Chair.

Excuse me, Deputy.

-----in order that people might know? Just put a date on it, expeditiously. I cannot find it in my calendar.

Respect the House and respect the Chair. Vótáil.

I have said I have not yet-----

Why is it that your provisional arrangement favours the so-called technical group, a Cheann Comhairle?

There is no expeditiousness at all, a Cheann Comhairle. Could you just put a date on it? It is relatively simple. It should not be a big ask, a Cheann Comhairle. Can you put a date on it, please?

A Cheann Comhairle-----

I am sorry. Excuse me, Members.

On a point of order.

There is no point of order.

There is a point of order.

The Deputy can speak in a minute. He should resume his seat. Deputy Boyd Barrett wants to speak.

I have a question - a short one liner.

Members should not shout at me and jump out of their seats. I am prepared to hear them, but the reality in this regard is that I cannot give a date because I have not yet received all the submissions. I call Deputy Boyd Barrett.

I have just one question. We asked for the OPLA's advice and the legal advice you were given. You committed to doing that. Can you tell us when the Opposition and the Business Committee will see the legal advice that led you to make your provisional decision?

As soon as I have received all the submissions and had a chance-----

Why wait?

Why not share the advice now?

You are here, a Cheann Comhairle, to support the TDs in the House. Why not share it with the rest of us?

Make your submissions.

There is a process to be undertaken.

You are designing the process.

That process will not even begin until the close of business this evening when all the submissions have been received.

What is the process?

A Cheann Comhairle, there is a massive conflict of interest here. I have done a submission on the conflict of interest for Independent Ireland. The Regional Independents nominated you as Ceann Comhairle. If this was any court in the land, a judge would not be allowed to preside over a family case.

She is your Ceann Comhairle too. She is the Ceann Comhairle of this House.

In this case - not taking from the Ceann Comhairle's character - but in the interests of fairness-----

Thank you, Deputy.

-----and the protection of the Ceann Comhairle, she should step aside and let somebody else deal with this issue. I am not taking from her character.

Thank you, Members. Everybody in the House-----

A Cheann Comhairle-----

Deputy, you had-----

Under Standing Order 35(3), I am entitled to propose an amendment to the Order of Business.

On that basis-----

I propose that we suspend the Dáil and convene an urgent meeting of the Business Committee to deal with the outrageous proposition that the Dáil will not return next week and that 39 TDs in Sinn Féin will be allocated ten minutes - the same as your Government's group in opposition. Michael Lowry is a member of the Opposition.

Deputy-----

Michael Lowry stood outside this building and said "We will support the Government in the good days and the bad", with all seven of them, and he is a member of the Opposition. For God's sake.

Deputy, please.

You are making a mockery of democracy here. The Taoiseach to come and the Taoiseach right now-----

I am going to-----

-----designed this situation today. They have it within their power to resolve this issue. The technical groups should have speaking rights from the Government side. That is where they belong.

Hear, hear.

Thank you, Deputy.

I am proposing that we suspend the Dáil now.

A Cheann Comhairle-----

That is my proposal.

This is one of the first times on the Order of Business-----

Deputy Carthy, you are out of order. Please resume your seat.

-----that I have been a part of that Deputy Mattie McGrath has not had something to say.

Please allow me-----

This would not happen at a residents' meeting.

Now is his opportunity-----

-----to let us know why he is facilitating this charade and why the Deputy beside him is. Maybe he should get an opportunity to tell the Dáil why he is going to support an increase in carbon taxes for the next five years, thereby increasing costs for people driving to work and heating their homes and for farmers, and then pretending that he is in the Opposition-----

Deputy Carthy, you are out of order. Please resume your seat.

-----and then having the facilitation of Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Peadar Tóibín and Mattie McGrath to carry on in this charade.

I am afraid-----

This is a test of you, a Cheann Comhairle, and so far you are failing the test.

That is outrageous.

Deputy, I am going to give you one opportunity-----

It does not give me any pleasure to say that but you are facilitating one of the most outrageous breaches of parliamentary democracy we have seen here. It is not good enough.

This is not an Ard-Fheis; it is the national parliament. Resume your seat.

It is not good enough.

One opportunity.

A Cheann Comhairle, you cannot allow this to continue. This must not be allowed. It is a farce.

I will have to suspend the House, I am afraid.

It is not good enough. The two boys there got 42% of the vote but that does not give them the right to run roughshod over 100 years of precedent - every single precedent of the Oireachtas. It is not good enough.

You have been a Deputy, a Cheann Comhairle, and you know this is utterly ridiculous.

It is not good enough. We have a cabal here of Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Independents making a joke of this whole process.

Resume your seats. Thank you. We will suspend.

Deputies, please resume your seats. I am left with no option but to suspend the House for 15 minutes.

As Deputies will all be aware, we have entered a process. I have given an undertaking to Members, categorically, to deal with that process expeditiously. "Expeditiously" means before the resumption of Dáil Éireann on 5 February.

We have not agreed to that.

Can I make a point of order?

I am now going to put the question.

Sorry, a Cheann Comhairle, can I have a point of order, please? I would like to pick up a point of order.

Deputies who are in favour of the motion say "Tá".

On a point of order------

Deputies who are against, say "Níl".

What about the legal advice? When will we get the legal advice?

The question is carried.

It is not carried. On a point of order-----

When will we get the legal advice?

I am an elected Member of this Dáil and I am entitled to do that. The people of Cork North-Central elected me----

To hold a vote at this stage would be a disgrace.

We now move to the next business, which is Nomination of Taoiseach, pursuant to Article------

When will we get the legal advice?

Fair is fair. There has to be fairness. There must be fairness now.

A Cheann Comhairle, we cannot have a vote now.

We are not going to take five years of being pushed down and unfairness. I am asking about Standing Orders.

This is a really serious issue. We have to have-----

Deputies, please resume your seats. The question has-----

-----a chance to discuss it.

We will not resume our seats until you confirm you will deal with the issue. This is a farce.

On a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle-----

When are we going to get the legal advice?

When we are getting the legal advice? Tell us when we are getting the legal advice, a Cheann Comhairle. There is no good reason not to give us the OPLA legal advice now.

What about the legal advice?

A point of order has been raised. Will the Ceann Comhairle deal with that please? A suggestion has been made. A proposal has been put through an amendment-----

We need to get the legal advice.

We can suspend the House again if Deputies cannot resume their seats.

Ridiculous.

We will not stand for it.

You are doing a lot of standing for Facebook there, Thomas.

We need to get the legal advice, a Cheann Comhairle.

I suspend the House for 30 minutes. Thank you, Deputies.

I now call on the Government Chief Whip to make a brief statement.

Today as Members of Dáil Éireann, we are all here to elect a Government and Taoiseach following the result of the general election. That is our duty. The Ceann Comhairle has given a clear commitment to work with all parties and none to resolve the issue of the technical group. I reiterate the Government's clear commitment to work with her and that process to resolve that to ensure we have a politically acceptable solution. The Dáil will resume on 5 February and I want to ensure that together, we can ensure we have a functioning Government elected and up and running on that date. I propose that the Whips meet for 30 minutes to see if we can find a resolution with the Ceann Comhairle's approval.

Is that agreed?

There will be 30 minutes for a meeting and 15 minutes to consult with our parties so it will be 45 minutes.

The meeting will be 30 minutes long and parties will then have 15 minutes.

Is that agreed? Agreed. The House will suspend for 45 minutes.

I call on the Chief Whip.

Thank you, Ceann Comhairle. Following a series of meetings between party Whips today, a number of measures have been agreed. These meetings were held to enable the democratic process of this House and do what we were all elected to Dáil Éireann to do, that is, to elect a Taoiseach and Government. All parties have agreed to allow the democratic process to proceed. There were a number of agreements and it is my understanding that that is now in dispute.

There was no agreement made.

There was no agreement.

The nomination of Taoiseach should now proceed as per the order of the House.

Hear, hear.

This is disgraceful.