The Taoiseach is hell-bent on upending the democratic functioning of the Dáil to protect his grubby deal with Deputy Michael Lowry. Today the Taoiseach will try to ram through unprecedented changes to Dáil rules to allow Deputy Lowry and his group of TDs to sit in Government and Opposition at the same time. These are TDs who have pledged to support his Government in good days and in bad, to use their own words. It is a farce and it is making a mockery of this Dáil. Frankly, the lengths to which the Taoiseach has gone with this brazen stroke are staggering.
Let us put an end to the charade. The Michael Lowry group are Government TDs, plain and simple. They designated themselves as such when they helped to negotiate, write and agree the programme for Government. Their colleagues were rewarded with ministerial office. That is the reality. On 23 January, the Government gave its word that it would work for a solution acceptable to both Government and Opposition. Hildegarde Naughton, then Chief Whip, pledged in the Dáil to “work to secure agreement, as soon as possible and acceptable to Government and Opposition", but clearly the Taoiseach's word means nothing. He has gone back on his commitment and has made no genuine effort to find a resolution. Instead, he proposes to turn the Dáil inside out by allowing Government TDs access to the mechanisms which the actual Opposition uses to hold his Government to account. He wants the utterly absurd spectacle of Michael Lowry and his group taking Leaders' Questions and pretending to challenge the Government they are part of.
This is a sham. The Taoiseach has dug in because he does not want to be accountable. His claim that this is all about speaking time for backbenchers is patently untrue. In fact, he wants to get rid of Taoiseach’s Questions on a Wednesday. Pull the other one, Taoiseach.
Accountability matters. Just ask those he misled on housing delivery during the election or the parents of children with special needs who the Government led up the garden path on funding of services. The Taoiseach does not want to be accountable. Is that not the truth?
Tuesday 25 March 2025
Leaders' Questions
423 contributions, as the Official Report records them.
This is stroke politics.
What exactly does Deputy Lowry have over the Taoiseach? What debt does he owe him? The former Fine Gael Minister, a rogue politician as the Taoiseach described him, is now kingmaker for the Government. This is a man the Taoiseach wants to sit in both government and opposition at the same time.
The combined Opposition has repeatedly sought to meet with the Taoiseach to resolve this matter. Our offers have either been rejected or ignored. He acts in bad faith. To meet his narrow short-term need to placate Lowry and Co., he now proposes to do real and lasting damage to the democratic processes of the Dáil.
Tá Fianna Fáil agus Fine Gael ag moladh feidhmiú daonlathach na Dála a iompú bun os cionn chun an socrú suarach atá acu leis an Teachta Lowry a chosaint. Ní ghlacfaidh muid leis. The combined Opposition is not backing down on this matter. We reject the Taoiseach's attempt to run roughshod over this Dáil and to ram through this motion. He can step back from the brink. He can still meet with the Opposition to work out a solution. What he will not get away with, however, is pretending that signed and sealed Government TDs can act as Opposition. You cannot be in government and opposition at the same time.
Ar dtús báire, is mian liom a rá nach n-aontaím in aon chor leis an méid atá ráite ag an Teachta McDonald.
Ní rud nua é sin.
Tá sé dochreidte an méid atá ráite aici. Níl i gceist againn ach ocht nóiméad ar an Mháirt agus ocht nóiméad breise ar an gCéadaoin a thabhairt do chúlbhinseoirí-----
Amaidí.
Minus 45 minutes.
-----an Rialtais agus Teachtaí Dála neamhspleácha. In essence, I have to say that-----
Spoofer.
-----the distortion of the debate is extraordinary. The disproportionate response of Sinn Féin and indeed the Opposition is extraordinary. Considering that this Dáil meets 101 days approximately per year.
Whose fault is that?
What is being proposed for 60 TDs is that they would have an opportunity-----
There is only one who matters.
They have lots of opportunities and the Taoiseach knows it.
-----of eight minutes on a Tuesday and eight minutes on a Wednesday to ask a question of the Taoiseach of the day. That actually means that for an individual in that group of 60, it could be an opportunity-----
They have Taoiseach's Questions.
I have not interrupted anyone. It basically means that once a year-----
Who are you speaking to?
That is not the issue.
-----a backbench TD may get that opportunity to speak in these sorts of questions.
It was not an issue when the Green Party was in government.
For all that, the Opposition has manufactured a political row and has raised this issue to heights that are quite farcical given the enormity of the issues we have to face as a country.
You have done this.
If I may say-----
Do Deputies wish to listen to the answer out of respect for the functions-----
We want an answer.
Again, I respect-----
If the Deputies listen-----
The Taoiseach does not respect this House.
How does Deputy Lowry pull the Taoiseach's strings from that distance?
Answer the question.
Deputies, please. The Taoiseach is speaking. Did Deputies not notice? A question was asked.
But he is not saying anything.
He is. The Deputy might not-----
He is talking to the Gallery.
I respect the rights of every Deputy who is elected to this House. I respect their rights.
Except those of the Opposition.
I respect their rights to be heard-----
Is that when you are in government?
-----as well as their rights to speak.
Then why are you halving our time?
There is an attempt already to frustrate my attempt to speak here this afternoon in response to Deputy McDonald.
The Taoiseach is trying to escape his responsibility. Some 30 hours per year is a Government scapegoat.
In a more serious vein, the Opposition has been endeavouring to, if you like, direct or dictate a new departure, whereby it becomes the Opposition-----
We are trying to stop a new departure.
The Opposition is now saying that it is up to it to decide who sits where in this House, who forms what group-----
No, by agreement.
The Ceann Comhairle has already decided.
That is unprecedented by any yardstick.
That man is pulling your strings. That is what is happening.
I have never, and I am in this House-----
What has he got on you?
Deputies, I am standing. I expect that you will respect the Chair. We are in a democratic House. This is Leaders' Questions.
Deputies, whether you like what is being said or not, please listen. That is the process.
If we got an answer, that would be nice.
We have a lot of visitors in the Gallery. The public are watching. I am asking you all to have respect for one another, one and all. That is all I am asking for on behalf of those who are watching.
They are subverting this Chamber.
I was first elected to this House in 1989. I have never seen an attempt like this to say-----
Now we are getting a history lesson.
I have never seen an attempt like this to tell-----
You are right. We will agree on that one. Never before have we seen a stroke like this.
Deputies, while you may not have respect for me, I am the Chair. When I speak, nobody else speaks.
Respect the Ceann Comhairle's decision.
Deputies, I am asking that you respect the process and the operation of the House.
Just stick to the decision that was made.
That means that when I speak, I ask you to have respect for the Chair. That decision has been made and it is well gone. We are in the democratic process of where we are on a different matter today. I ask Deputy McDonald to respond.
No, it is the same matter.
A Cheann Comhairle, with the greatest of respect, we are on the same ground. Micheál Martin can spare us and the nation his sanctimonious homilies on democracy. He has been here since 1989, which is a political lifetime. Never has such a brazen stroke been attempted. In all of the peculiar shenanigans of this place, there has never been something like this. The Taoiseach was quick enough to throw his own people under the bus in the last Dáil when it suited him. It is incredible that he will go to these extraordinary lengths for Deputy Michael Lowry.
Hear, hear.
We are asking why. We should have an answer to this. It is as simple as this: the Taoiseach should not take people for fools. People know that for their interests to be protected and for politics and democracy to work, the Government has its prerogatives to discharge. We respect that. The Taoiseach needs to respect the duty and the prerogatives of the Opposition but he does not want that. He wants a blunt Opposition because he does not want to be held to account. If he is worried about his backbenchers, he should leave Taoiseach's questions on a Wednesday. That gives them ample opportunity to raise matters with him.
I hope Deputy McDonald notes that she got full respect and opportunity to speak from this side of the House. I was not afforded that respect and courtesy from the other side of the House when I endeavoured to answer a while ago.
You do not answer the question.
Fundamentally-----
An answer would be nice for a change.
The point I was making is that I have never before witnessed political parties trying to tell others what box they are in or what group they belong to.
They chose the box themselves.
On a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle, you made a ruling and the Government is challenging that ruling. Do not blame us, Taoiseach. The Ceann Comhairle made the ruling.
Deputies, resume your seats when the Ceann Comhairle is standing. We have spent hours. I have invested as much as 20 hours over the past months trying to come to a consensus and an agreement.
There is not any-----
Unfortunately, we have reached an impasse.
Because they did not want to reach a consensus.
I expect respect, Deputy, so that I can finish what I am saying.
Let the ruling stand.
Excuse me, Deputy, I am speaking. We have reached an impasse and when we reach an impasse, we then move to the mechanism that moves all those democratically elected from the impasse, which is the voting mechanism. We are now-----
Did the Chief Whip mislead the Dáil when she sided with you, a Cheann Comhairle, with the acceptance of the Opposition? Could the Ceann Comhairle rule on that? Did the Chief Whip deliberately mislead the Dáil-----
The Deputy should resume his seat.
-----when she stood up and made a promise that the Government would bring forward a proposal that would be acceptable to the Opposition?
Hear, hear.
The Deputy should resume his seat.
Perhaps you should make a judgment on that issue, a Cheann Comhairle.
Deputy Doherty should resume his seat. He knows the rulings of the House.
Make a ruling on that issue, a Cheann Comhairle. Did the Chief Whip deliberately mislead this Dáil?
Is it the case that Deputy Doherty does not have respect for me or the Chair? Now it is becoming apparent that-----
I ask Deputy Doherty to respect the Chair. It is not me; I am not concerned. However, I am the Ceann Comhairle and I am sitting in the Chair and I expect a level of respect to come from each and every Member-----
Hear, hear.
-----when I speak. The level of disruption to which we can go today is well documented. We are either going to continue with Leaders' Questions or we can move on. Deputies may not like the answers they are getting but I cannot give instructions on answers.
We are getting no answers.
My function is to chair this Dáil and ensure that the House operates.
And to be fair and impartial as well.
We are moving on with the business. I now move to Deputy Bacik.
Once more, with today's motion, the Taoiseach is dragging us back to this absurd technical groups issue.
Hear, hear.
Bombs are raining down in a genocidal bombardment on children in Gaza. The people of Ukraine are fighting for their country. Democracy is under threat across the globe - in Belarus, Hungary and Turkey. We see grim new milestones for global warming. The housing crisis is deepening here at home. Fears are growing about the impact of Trump's tariffs. These are the pressing issues that deserve all our attention. Instead, the Government insists on continuing to push through this proposed amendment to Standing Orders, which is a desperate distraction.
The Taoiseach seeks to confuse the issue. He talks about speaking rights, but we all know what is at issue here. This is a simple matter. You cannot be in government and in opposition at the same time.
Hear, hear.
It is at precisely this time that we in this House need to stand firm and resolute in our defence of democratic values, and of our constitutional function as Members of Dáil Éireann.
Hear, hear.
Article 28.4.1° of our Constitution provides that: "The Government shall be responsible to Dáil Éireann." That is why our Standing Orders provide for Leaders' Questions. It is the set-piece exchange every week where we in opposition, as Opposition leaders, get to hold the Taoiseach and the Government to account. It matters for our communities that the lines are clear in a democracy and that we can assign responsibility when things go wrong. Since we took our seats in this Dáil, we sought accountability from the Taoiseach on many issues. For example, statements he and his Ministers made during the general election campaign, when they exaggerated how many houses would be built. We must hold the Government to account on those claims, and on so much more, on behalf of the people we represent.
There are massive delays in children seeking assessments of need. There are failures to provide school places for children with additional needs. There is a glaring absence of climate policies. It is our constitutional duty to represent our communities and hold the Government to account. That is why it matters when we see the Government's continued attempts to create a sham Opposition, a contrivance purely to placate the Lowry lobby.
Hear, hear.
To describe Lowry's group as wolves in sheep's clothing would give them too much credit, but they are a very poor tribute act - a poor imitation of those of us who are genuinely in opposition and taking our constitutional duties seriously. The Taoiseach knows, as does everyone, that the manufactured, nonsensical "other Members' questions" device is really being introduced to give the Lowry lads and Deputy Toole special time to tell the Government how well it is doing. The Taoiseach knows it. Everyone in the country knows it. This is the group that has undertaken to support the Government in good times and bad. The Ceann Comhairle has ruled that they are not in opposition. Let us respect her ruling.
Hear, hear.
Let us give up this farce.
I thank the Deputy.
How can the Taoiseach continue to justify this?
You cannot be in government and in opposition at the same time.
Let us see what is being proposed. Private Members' business still lasts for 120 minutes.
Why is it being proposed in the first place?
There is no change to that. Sponsor time is still 40 minutes, no change.
When you are in government, you are in government.
Sinn Féin's time remains exactly as it was in the last Dáil.
That is not the issue.
What is interesting is that each other Opposition grouping gains time in this Dáil under this proposal as compared with the last time out.
You are turning yourself inside out.
Very generous.
I can recall a time, when the Labour Party had a calamitous general election result, that we facilitated reducing the threshold to allow the Labour Party to have speaking rights. That is easily forgotten by the Deputy and her party members. There is no change in Ministers and Ministers of State responding to the Dáil. In other words, there is absolutely no change in terms of accountability of this Government to the Dáil in comparison with the last Dáil.
Bar yourself.
A big change.
Deputies.
What is farcical is the extraordinary manufactured political row, which is wholly disproportionate to this issue-----
Deputies.
In other words, the change is very modest. It does not in any shape or form justify the level of dramatic action and feigned outrage that we are witnessing on the Opposition side.
You are not selling your soul very well in fairness.
I agree with Deputy that there are far more substantive and profound issues------
Then deal with them.
-----facing this country that we should now be getting on with, such as housing and disability services------
This is a political stroke and the Taoiseach knows it.
-----and perhaps what will perhaps be the most significant and profound economic winds blowing in our direction that we have seen for quite some time.
The Government is pulling a stroke.
That is what this Dáil and Oireachtas need to focus on. We also need to focus on the wars that are raging in Europe and the Middle East with appalling and savage loss of life and slaughter of people. Are we seriously suggesting that giving eight minutes per day-----
That is not what it is about.
-----to backbench TDs is such a profound change in the Standing Orders that it necessitates the feigned outrage that we are witnessing-----
Deputies.
I call Deputy Bacik. Does the Taoiseach wish to continue?
I definitely do.
It is not your time yet, Deputy Bacik. The Taoiseach still has a minute left.
I make the point that the level of change here is so minuscule when you look at it.
Stop it.
The 60 TDs will get one chance a year to participate in this forum and that is exciting everyone. There will be one opportunity for a backbench TD to question me, the Taoiseach of the day, and the Opposition is all up to high doh with feigned outrage.
It is an affront to democracy.
I will make one final point. When an election happens, there is a fundamental obligation to form a Government-----
Yes.
-----which has been completely lost of sight of-----
-----and the importance-----
Keep shouting, keep shouting.
Deputies, all you are doing is running down the clock.
The point I was making was that Governments were formed with the support of three Independent TDs, no one at the time------
There are more than three.
They are in government with you.
It is noteworthy that people on the opposite side do not want to hear a response to the questions being asked.
We want answers.
It is a complete shoutdown. They shout down the debate because they do not want to hear explanations.
Thank you, Taoiseach.
No Opposition TD ever lost any rights to this day. This has been proved by multiple senior counsel opinions at this stage under previous Standing Orders.
It is a political issue.
Thank you, Taoiseach. Your is time up. I call Deputy Bacik to respond.
As we all know, the Ceann Comhairle ruled on 3 February that the Lowry grouping is not in opposition. Let us respect that ruling.
Hear, hear
The only manufacturing going on is the Taoiseach seeking to manufacture a sham Opposition, pretending that this is about speaking rights for Government backbenchers. He knows it is not. Everyone in the country knows it is not because all Government backbenchers, including those in the Lowry group, have privileged access to Government Ministers and they already have speaking time. I feel sorry for Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael backbenchers. Very few of them have been out defending the indefensible on the airwaves because they know they have speaking time already. They know they have in Questions on Policy or Legislation and Taoiseach's Questions. The Government's proposal will make them lose out too. They will not be able to dominate Taoiseach's questions any longer, because he has used this row to give himself Wednesday afternoons off, slashing that slot to carve out time for the Lowry gang. This is the indefensible. It is manufacturing a sham Opposition. We all know what this is really about.
Thank you, Deputy.
You acknowledged yourself-----
Thank you Deputy.
-----that Michael Lowry is in government when you promised the public that he-----
Deputy, your time is up. Allow the Taoiseach to respond.
-----would "not be in government to do any corruption", so what is this all about?
Deputy Bacik, thank you.
What is the hold that he and his group have on you?
It is a sad day.
That is what people want to know about this stroke.
The Deputy feigns sympathy for the Government backbenchers-----
So do you.
Of course we do.
-----but there is an issue around proportionality in terms of how the Dáil is structured. In recent times, from 2016 onwards when we changed the thresholds to allow smaller groups to be formed, there has been a wholly disproportionate platform for some representatives, such as when one Independent joins three or four other Independents. They have had far more speaking time than Government backbenchers have had over the last five years and that is going to change. This is an attempt to rebalance that.
Deputies.
Then it has taken you nine years to stand up for your own backbenchers.
The Taoiseach is very selective.
I am not very selective
You are.
Deputy, with the greatest of respect, your party was very grateful for the fact we were sympathetic enough-----
To clean up your mess.
-----to accommodate you when you lost a whole range of seats.
We have never been grateful to Fianna Fáil.
Deputy. The Taoiseach has ten seconds left.
He is running out of time all right.
I do not expect-----
Maybe he will provide an answer in those ten seconds-----
-----that the democratic process operates like this-----
-----on what hold Deputy Lowry has on him.
-----and I do not think the public do either. Could you please allow it to continue?
A Cheann Comhairle, the public do not want to see a stroke happening like the Government is attempting today.
Taoiseach, you have ten seconds or we can move on.
I am fine.
You are fine. Deputy Cian O'Callaghan on Leaders' Questions.
Maybe Mr. Lowry has something to say about all this.
Will he finally make a statement? Do you want to make a statement, Mr. Lowry? Silence from Deputy Lowry.
Deputy, allow your colleague to have his time for Leaders' Questions.
Just on a point of order-----
There is not a point of order-----
You have to hear him first.
Deputy Lowry said he wanted to make a statement. Does he want to make one now?
Deputy, there is no point-----
Would he like to make a statement now? He said he was going to make a statement. He was beating his chest that he was going to make a statement. Where is Deputy Lowry's statement?
There is no point of order-----
Can we have a statement from Deputy Lowry?
-----when the Chair is standing. Deputy O'Callaghan, please.
Get your time back, Cian.
Will I not get three minutes, a Cheann Comhairle? No. Okay.
It is your friends' fault.
No, it is your fault. It is your stroke.
It is your friends' fault.
The Taoiseach's efforts to defend the indefensible are not working. Dáil rules are being reverse-engineered to guarantee one outcome, that is, that Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael will deliver on the deal they have made with Michael Lowry. That is what it all boils down to. The Taoiseach's backbenchers are well aware he would not be going to these extremes for them. The truth is the Government has caused chaos in this Dáil and delayed setting up committees to facilitate Michael Lowry and keep him happy. The public have a right to know what was in the deal with Michael Lowry. The Taoiseach should come clean on that. This is a shameless political stroke that would make even Bertie blush. There are clear lines of separation between Government and Opposition because we have different functions. That has always been recognised in Dáil procedures because it is fundamental to how this place operates. It is the job of Government TDs to support the Government and of Opposition TDs to hold the Government to account. Is this accountability what the Government is afraid of and so desperate to avoid?
In a way I get it. This Government has already made a disaster in terms of broken election promises. It spectacularly failed to deliver 40,000 homes it promised last year. It promised to prioritise enacting the occupied territories Bill but it has been put on the long finger. Government parties spent the election promising tax cuts and enormous spending increases even though we in the Social Democrats warned this was reckless behaviour and now the finance Minister has admitted those promised tax cuts are highly unlikely to ever materialise. The truth is Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael cannot be trusted.
After Fianna Fáil bankrupted the country and the troika took over in 2010 we were promised, "Never again". Reforms of Dáil procedure to strengthen Opposition oversight were introduced post crash. It is clear the Government has forgotten about the lessons of the past. Instead of strengthening accountability it wants to weaken it. Stroke politics and dodgy deals with Michael Lowry have taken precedence and Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael are reverting to type - arrogant complacency. Does the Taoiseach really think people voted for that? He made a pledge that any changes to Standing Orders would be done in agreement with the Opposition. It is clear he has no intention of honouring that.
Another broken promise.
Given this track record of duplicity, why should anyone in the Opposition or the public trust what he says?
The people voted in the last general election-----
They did not vote for Michael Lowry.
-----and they clearly voted, whether you like it or not-----
It seems the election result never sunk in with people on the opposite side.
No. False pretences.
You misled people-----
A three-card trick.
-----and now you are pulling a stroke.
That is just a reality. Therefore, it fell to this side of the House-----
We did not see Micheal Lowry in the manifesto.
You misled people.
-----to form a government.
You are trying to control-----
Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael did not have the numbers.
Please. The Taoiseach is addressing Deputy O'Callaghan.
You were not really interested in going into government.
Come on.
Give us a break.
You had no interest at all. You had none. Your manifesto was so threadbare in any detail that it was no wonder.
Well yours was a pack of lies.
Michael Lowry's manifesto. What was that about?
The Labour Party did not want to go into government------
Deputies.
The Labour Party did not want to go into government because it was watching you. You are both watching each other. You are both nervous of each other, so therefore you did not come forward.
Sinn Féin did not have the numbers to form a government-----
The Taoiseach is being asked a very specific set of questions. He could answer them.
-----and Independent Ireland had some issues that we did not find agreement with but at least its members came in and engaged with us in a substantive way. The Regional Independent Group said they wanted to support and facilitate the formation of a government.
As you are talking about it, what was the deal?
What was the deal?
That is not new, by the way. That is not new.
Exactly, they are in government.
This has been a feature of our fragmented system.
Please.
Our electoral system has in recent times and will in the future create a fragmented result. The danger in what the Opposition is saying is-----
It is called deflection.
Say after the next general election in five years' time, a potential government is short three or four TDs. Why would three or four Independent TDs volunteer to facilitate the formation of a government?
Why would they?
Exactly. Answer that question.
Why would they do that if it meant-----
Deputies.
-----that the rest of the Opposition said, "We are going to deny you your rights as TDs if you dare facilitate and support the Government". Looking at it from my perspective-----
You are making it worse the longer you are on your feet.
-----and from a constitutional perspective, it is quite an extraordinary thing you are trying to do here which will actually-----
Protect democracy.
Hold you to your word is what he is trying to get you to do.
-----undermine any potential for the formation of a government into the future.
Nonsense.
You are now basically saying that no Independent in the future-----
Please.
The Taoiseach has been asked some very specific questions and he is refusing to answer them.
You are not a leader yet, Deputy.
You have been asked very specific questions here Taoiseach. We deserve an answer. Will you respect the decision of the Ceann Comhairle?
Deputy, I am standing.
Will the Taoiseach respect the decision of the Ceann Comhairle?
Deputy, I am standing.
Will the Taoiseach respect the decision of the Ceann Comhairle?
Whether you like what is being said or not, you will have respect for the position of the Ceann Comhairle. When the Ceann Comhairle stands, you sit-----
And I am sitting-----
-----and it does not matter who you are.
The Taoiseach should have respect for the Ceann Comhairle.
I have asked you to sit. I am speaking, Deputy.
And I can hear you.
I do not wish to spell respect. We are all adults. We are well aware of what we-----
There has to be respect for the democratic process-----
Excuse me, Deputy.
We are asking for the Taoiseach to respect the decision the Ceann Comhairle made.
It is very apparent-----
We are asking that the Taoiseach respect the decision that he is riding roughshod over.
-----here today now that nobody is interested in hearing answers.
We want answers.
We would love to hear an answer.
The Taoiseach is not interested in giving us answers.
Afford him the respect to at least have the answer listened to.
That is an interpretation, Ceann Comhairle.
We would love answers.
This is a pantomime with no answers.
It is using up Deputy O'Callaghan's time. Does the Deputy wish to make his minute heard? His Opposition colleagues clearly do not.
Yes, we do.
We do.
The Taoiseach is right. This is quite extraordinary-----
I did not get a chance to finish what I was saying.
Yes, but in more than 100 years of this Dáil, never ever in the weekly schedule has there a time slot created where 100% of the time is allocated to the Government. Does the Taoiseach not see something fundamentally wrong-----
Leader's Questions.
-----with a time slot being created where Government TDs ask the Taoiseach questions without any input from the Opposition? Can the Taoiseach tell me of any parliament in the world where there is a time slot where 100% of it-----
North Korea.
-----is for government backbenchers to ask government leaders questions with no time allocated to the opposition? That does not exist. Therefore, this is quite extraordinary and it should not be done. Will he tell me one place in the world where this happens?
It is not happening here.
Westminster.
No, it does not.
Do you want to go back there?
Please, Deputies.
Deputies, I am making the point in answer to the question - in fairness the Deputy has asked questions and I think I should be allowed the right to answer but other Deputies do not want me to because they do not like the answer.
Want to try again?
How is that going now?
Hold the Government to account.
What I would say to you is this; in the future, for example, there could be three or four TDs who could facilitate the formation of a Government. What the Deputy is now saying is that Independent TDs in the future attempting to facilitate the formation of a Government will have their rights diminished. That is the essence of the Opposition proposal.
The Deputy deserves an answer.
He has had four chances and he still has not answered the question.
Take Deputies McGrath and Nolan, for example, they are part of this group. They have voted against the Government three or four times already but the Deputy and others are taking it upon themselves to tell them they must be corralled in a certain part of the Dáil and can only be allowed to do A, B and C. That is unconstitutional. You have no right to do that. You have absolutely no right to do that and it is wrong.
A Cheann Comhairle, is he doing this for his own backbenchers or is he doing it for Deputy McGrath? We need clarity on that issue now. Who is the Taoiseach actually fighting for now?
Sit down, Deputy. You are making a show of yourself; sit down. I thank the Taoiseach, his time is up. I call Deputy Collins.
Time is definitely up.
If we go ahead today with Government proposals on giving extra time for Government-backing TDs in Opposition time, it shows how far this Government is capable of going in eroding the democracy of the island of Ireland.
Hear, hear.
Our general election took place on 29 November 2024, and for a couple of months a Government had to be put together. On 22 January, the Dáil sat and for the first time was forced to call off Dáil proceedings so an agreement could be made to bring this speaking row to an end. All of this time we the Opposition were united on one front: that Deputy Lowry's group had a right to speaking time in this Dáil but not on Opposition time.
Hear, hear.
Every effort by the Government since has been to do everything but that. On the morning of 23 January, the Taoiseach and Tánaiste met with us leaders to end this row and let the Dáil get back to the business it had to do - elect the Taoiseach, set up committees - and we all agreed we would work together to create a solution on this hugely important issue for the country.
Less than an hour later, the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, read a statement into the Dáil record. It was agreed by the Taoiseach, Tánaiste and all the Opposition that, "the Government will today bring forward a motion to establish the Committee on Standing Orders and Dáil Reform...and to work to secure agreement, as soon as possible and acceptable to Government and Opposition, as regards formation of technical groups." The Business Committee met that day and agreed we would all put forward submissions on a way forward. Again, the Opposition was clear. We never denied any speaking times to Michael Lowry's group of six TDs but this would be specifically during Government speaking time slots, not Opposition-----
Hear, hear.
-----as they have clearly agreed to support this Government one way or another, which is their own prerogative I may add. The next scheduled meeting of the Dáil reform committee was scheduled for 26 February. At this meeting came the bombshell from the Government Chief Whip, Deputy Mary Butler, that the previous verbal agreement given by the Taoiseach and Tánaiste and read out by the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, was now being reneged on------
Hear, hear.
Shameful.
------and a railroading of democracy was going ahead. When summing up today, the Taoiseach will say we had enough time to try to get an agreement from the Opposition but it would not agree. Since the day he was elected, however, we have only had two meetings of the Dáil reform committee to try to resolve this issue in 28 days. I know because I attended these meetings. Is the Taoiseach a man of his word or not? Does he agree with me that this was the sequence of events? Am I right in saying if he really wanted to bring this to a fair and honest end, he would have asked his Chief Whip to meet every day to resolve the issue and not two meetings - one to iron out the procedures for the next meeting and the next to railroad through, making a mockery of this House and its procedures?
Hear, hear.
We have written to the Taoiseach numerous times to try to resolve this issue and to make sure this dark day for democracy would not happen but he has chosen to ignore it. Will the Taoiseach at this late stage, sit down with the Opposition leaders and thrash out an agreement to bring this sorry episode to an end?
He will only deal at Dáil times.
Hear, hear.
End of stroke politics.
Such hyperbole is really stretching it. The bottom line is this-----
End of stroke politics.
Does your word mean anything?
Obviously not.
------that three of the Opposition parties gain more time in terms of holding the Government to account. That is the factual position, as a result of 20 hours of discussions and so forth between the Chief Whip and the Whips of the other parties and also in terms of the committee on Dáil reform. That is the mechanism we have established in terms of the committee on Dáil Reform.
Deflection again.
Allow a debate here.
I say to the Deputy, from his perspective he is not losing any time.
We are.
We are losing time at the Order of Business and Taoiseach's Questions.
You are not compared to the last Dáil, you are actually gaining time and that is the bottom line here.
Deputies will have their chance. This is Deputy Collins's question.
This was raised earlier. If you compare Dáil Éireann to any other parliament in Europe, you will find the Opposition has more time than any other Opposition in any other parliament across Europe. Certainly in terms of Prime Ministers across Europe, no Prime Minister is in parliament more than the Irish Taoiseach is in Dáil Éireann.
This can be checked out and looked at in terms of other parliaments across Europe. This proposal is proportionate because it is endeavouring to give backbench TDs of the Government parties and Independent TDs an opportunity-----
-----with eight minutes on a Tuesday or on a Wednesday. All this row, about the dark days of Irish democracy, is about eight minutes extra on a Tuesday and eight minutes extra on a Wednesday-----
It is stroke politics.
Deputies, please.
This apparently means we are on the brink of a terrible sort of negativity and so on.
Deputies, please.
Over the past ten years, there has been a consistent, incremental increase in time allocated to smaller groups within the Dáil and to Independents within the Dáil. There is a group on the far left that has about three or four Members with more speaking rights than other with 40 TDs or more.
That has been the reality over the past ten years.
There needs to be a degree of rebalancing.
Is Deputy Lowry a Government TD?
Backbench Deputies need the opportunity to ask questions.
Deputies, please.
There is no big deal in that. It does not in any way-----
The big demand from members of the Opposition at the beginning, when we met with them, was not to lose any time. They have not lost any time.
It is Stockholm syndrome.
The Opposition groups have actually gained time.
This is Deputy Collins's time.
All this just for Deputy Michael Lowry.
It is a difference of 25 hours.
It is interesting. I made a fundamental point. When a general election happens, and the Deputy knows this because they have engaged with us at different times after different elections, Governments have to be formed.
There is the realpolitik of forming a government. Governments have to be formed.
Some people have no interest in forming a government. That is fair enough but others do. The programme for Government-----
Deputies, please.
The programme for Government is the document that binds the people who are going to support the Government together. Underlying all of this, and the Deputy said we could have brought this to an end, I actually do not believe the Opposition wants to bring this to an end.
The Opposition is enjoying it a bit for its own electoral purposes. However, I want to make this point-----
The time is up. I thank the Taoiseach. I call on Deputy Collins to respond.
I thank the Ceann Comhairle. It looks like, no matter what we say here, the Government is going to railroad these changes through. It is very clear to the good, honest and hard-working people of this country that this is what the Taoiseach was going to do anyway. He has to be straight and honest. What is the deal he has done with Deputy Michael Lowry that has him spellbound? We know the deal has cost more than €5 million already with extra super junior Ministers, extra junior Ministers and extra payments for them alone over five years. Is it going to cost the honest and hard-working taxpayer €50 million? Is it going to cost €100 million, €200 million or above?
Hear, hear.
We need to know. The taxpayer needs to know. The ordinary man and woman who cannot afford to pay weekly bills need to know here and now. They know it is a sleazy deal that taxpayers must pay heavily for. On top of that, the Taoiseach wants them to ask planted questions in this House to make a mockery of the Irish people in Dáil Éireann.
I ask the Taoiseach to come clean on the deal that might yet crumble around him and to pull back from the mockery of the Irish people who are not with him on this one. Will he admit he cut 45 minutes of Taoiseach's Questions? Will he admit he cut the Order of Business time? Will he admit he cut Private Members' business time for our party by 20% on Wednesdays and Thursdays? This Lowry deal has cost us enough financially.
I thank Deputy Collins.
Do not let it cost us our democracy also.
The Deputy cannot be serious. He talks about it costing our democracy. Eight minutes on a Tuesday and our democracy is gone.
Please, Deputies.
Is the Taoiseach familiar with democracy?
Come on; it is farcical. However, in a more serious vein-----
Will the Deputy resume his seat? This is Deputy Collins's time.
What is really behind this, and it is very clear, is that the Opposition-----
There is a fundamental issue here-----
The fundamental issue here is the lack of respect for the Chair. The salient ruling-----
The Deputies are making an absolute holy show of themselves. I am loath to say it again but will the Deputy resume his seat?
Sorry, Ceann Comhairle-----
All Deputies, resume your seats.
-----I will not resume my seat.
Deputy, out of respect------
What is at stake here is a fundamental subversion of our rights to hold the Government to account. It is a fundamental question.
Sorry, Deputy, while you may not have respect for me-----
They need to convey why they are breaking their word to the Opposition. They told us on the day, on the floor here. You made the commitment it would be an agreement.
We can hear you okay.
Tell us now why you are breaking your word. What did that guy do to you in between?
Deputy, resume your seat.
You said there would be agreement so stand up and say it. You can laugh all you want, Michéal, but it is not funny. It is not funny what you are doing.
You might laugh, Taoiseach, but you are not in the White House now. Get up.
You are making-----
It is shocking what you are doing. It has never, ever happened, the stunt that you are trying to pull here.
For the public watching, you are making a holy-----
It is not going to happen.
One of your colleagues mentioned misogyny.
Misogyny is what was mentioned earlier.
This is a disgrace. Unbelievable.
This is a disgrace from the Government who are not listening to the Opposition and not listening to their own backbenchers. This is wrong. It is a disgrace.
Answer the question honestly. Give us an honest answer.
You have not answered the question. Not honest, but misleading.
It is an absolute disgrace. You are making a holy show of yourselves for the world to see.
It is very clear you have no respect for the Chair-----
We have-----
-----none whatsoever. On one hand-----
You will be aware that the public are watching. On one hand, you want this-----
Can you ask the Chief Whip-----
On one hand, you wish the Government to have respect for the Ceann Comhairle's ruling while you yourselves are seemingly incapable-----
-----of accepting.
Deputies, I will not be-----
This is not good enough.
I am going to remain standing until each and every one of you resume your seats.
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