2025-11-06

8. Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Defence to provide an update on the issue of chaplains, who are without representation despite working for, and being paid by, his Department. [60515/25]

69. Deputy Sean Fleming asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Defence in view of his support for chaplains to the Defence Forces having representation, his plans to agree to amending the PDF’s conciliation and arbitration scheme to provide for such representation in this administrative scheme; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [60435/25]

In August 2024, Fr. Paul Murphy was the subject of a heinous attack at Dún Uí Mhaoilíosa in Galway. It was an appalling attack. It underscored the vulnerability of those serving in the unique and vital role of military chaplains to our Defence Forces. I am seeking an update - I know it was discussed recently - on the issue of representation for chaplains working for and paid by the Department of Defence.

I propose to take Questions Nos. 8 and 69 together. I join Deputy Ó Laoghaire in paying tribute to Fr. Paul Murphy. I have had the honour of meeting him on a number of occasions. He is currently serving in and possibly about to return shortly from Lebanon, where he has gone with our troops, which underscores the Deputy's point about the distinction with which our chaplains serve. Fr. Paul showed huge bravery and courage that night. I recall talking to him in the aftermath of that horrific attack. I was really taken by his absolute Christianity and humanity. He is quite an incredible person. The Deputy's point is entirely right. Without wanting to shock him, this is one I fully agree with him on. I acknowledge the excellent work undertaken by our chaplains. I am in no doubt about the importance of their work in providing pastoral care and maintaining the morale of members of the Permanent Defence Force, most particularly when they can be under difficult or testing conditions while serving abroad. The contributions and sacrifices made by Defence Forces chaplains over the years are widely recognised and appreciated by the Defence Forces, my Department, the Government and the people of this country. Chaplains are not subject to military law, other than when accompanying members of the Defence Forces on active service. Chaplains are responsible for the pastoral care of members of the Defence Forces. Up until now, they have been appointed to a military installation by their bishop or religious superior after consultation with the head chaplain and following approval by the Minister for Defence. With regard to chaplains and their representation, I have asked for proposals to address this urgently. I said this at the RACO conference in Mullingar in recent weeks, where it was one of the issues highlighted. This needs to be resolved. I intend to resolve it once I have received proposals from my officials in the next few weeks. I am happy to engage with the Deputy.

Perhaps there is not a great deal more that can be added to that. Fr. Murphy, in particular, is regarded with great affection and trust by members of the Defence Forces. He responded to that attack with great courage and a great deal of grace as well. It is an important role. This was discussed at the RACO conference. As outlined, the legal advice is that chaplains are not members of the Defence Forces but it is difficult to reconcile that with the reality that they wear the uniform, they are employed overseas and they are remunerated by the Department of Defence, as well as other elements. The objective of RACO is that they would receive the allowances, protections and entitlements afforded to all other members of the Defence Forces such that in practical terms, chaplains would be members of the Defence Forces even if legally that is not the case. There are examples in others sectors. School chaplains are represented by the INTO, so there is a precedent.

I agree entirely with the policy principle and I will work with the Deputy and everyone in this House to fix it. I am very clear on that. To flag some information that may be of use to the House, we probably will need to change legislation but we are legislators and there is no reason we cannot do that. At the moment, chaplains are free to join almost any union or representative association of their choice - the Deputy mentioned one example - with the current exception of the military representative associations, RACO and PDFORRA, hence the problem. The law applicable to representative associations is outlined in the Defence (Amendment) Act 1990. Section 1 of the Act defines a member in this context as "an officer, non-commissioned officer, private or seaman of the Defence Forces". RACO is limited in law to representing officers of the Permanent Defence Force and chaplains are not classified as officers so they cannot be represented. That is the legal issue and where we have to fix it. I am clear that we need to work together on it. I have asked for proposals from my officials within the next few weeks and then we will work out the quickest way of bringing forward and changing any legislation that may be required.

As I said, there is not a great deal to add. If it is being worked on, that is welcome. Please keep us updated. It was suggested that a defence amendment Bill may be in the pipeline. I cannot say I will vote for it but I might vote for that section. Please keep the House and the committee updated. I appreciate it is not possible in the current legislative framework but it is logical and welcome that that be addressed.

I agree.