2025-12-09

14. Deputy Matt Carthy asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Finance the progress he has made divesting State moneys from companies that derive profits from their activities in the occupied Palestinian territories. [64395/25]

Why is Irish taxpayers' money still being invested in companies that derive their profits from the illegal occupation of Palestinian territories? Will the Tánaiste give the House an update on efforts to divest from such companies?

I thank the Deputy for this question, in which he has rightly asked me to outline the progress that has been made in divesting State moneys from companies that derive profits from their activities in the occupied Palestinian territories. The Government is clear in its opposition to illegal Israeli settlements, which are contrary to international law and damaging to the pursuit of peace in the Middle East. Ireland has not been found wanting in its support of the Palestinian people and has taken practical steps at national, EU and international levels. Indeed, we have been recognised internationally as a leading voice on this. Ireland has provided over €100 million in support of the people of Palestine since 2023. The Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, ISIF, has complete independence in implementing its investment strategy under the NTMA Acts through an investment committee that reports to the NTMA's board. ISIF has taken a decision to divest from six companies, all of which remain on the updated UN database. While divestment from these companies does not mean that Israel will stop maintaining its presence in the occupied Palestinian territories, sadly, ISIF will continue to monitor its investments. It is important to state the companies are ones that operate all over the world. ISIF's investment in them represents a very small proportion of its overall investments. More broadly, as the Deputy knows, efforts to secure a just resolution to the Israel–Palestine conflict and to the genocidal activity taking place in Palestine are ongoing. Our focus must remain on strengthening the ceasefire and bringing about peace. ISIF has taken a decision to divest from six companies, all of which remain on the updated UN database and with a total value at the time of divestment of approximately €2.95 million. The six companies are Bank Hapoalim BM, Bank Leumi Le-Israel BM, Israel Discount Bank Ltd., Mizrahi-Tefahot Bank Ltd., First International Bank Ltd. and Rami Levi Chain Stores Ltd. I will provide the Deputy with the list in writing. ISIF does not comment on individual investments but a list of ISIF investments is available in the 2024 NTMA annual report. I have been informed that ISIF will continue to monitor its holdings to ensure investments remain aligned with its risk profile and investment parameters, but it does not comment on individual investments. I am due to meet officials from the NTMA shortly.

It is not good enough that we continue to invest taxpayers' money in companies that derive their profits from a systemic apartheid regime, which involves the occupation of the West Bank in particular. We have known about this for years and that the occupation is illegal. We know of the real-life impact it has had. We also know that because Israel has faced no consequences whatsoever, it has continued to act with impunity, including through engaging in genocide in Gaza over the past couple of years. The very least we can do is ensure we are not investing public moneys in companies benefiting from all of this. While I welcome that there is divestment from six companies, that just shows that progress is far too slow. The Tánaiste indicated that he is going to meet officials from the NTMA. Is he going to instruct the NTMA to accelerate the process?

I will discuss and get an overview on a variety of issues with the NTMA at a first sit-down meeting. ISIF has divested from six companies on the UN database. The NTMA also divested from directly held sovereign bond holdings with a global portfolio across Egypt, Israel and Jordan in July 2025. It is important to note, as my notes suggest, that companies can come onto and off the UN database. Many of these companies are large, global companies. There needs to be that context too. These are large, global companies which can have a presence right across the world. Ireland's position on the occupied Palestinian territories has been clear and consistent in relation to their illegality. ISIF obviously has independence in relation to its investment strategy. That is not just independence that I say but independence under the law of the land, the NTMA Act, and under the investment committee that reports to the NTMA.

Companies can come on and off the UN database list but the question is what the point of having it is if it does not ensure that states act accordingly. The UN database sets out those companies that are deriving profits directly from the occupied territories, but it does not even cover all of the companies that are benefiting from Israeli war crimes. One company, Palantir, for example, has seen Irish investment increase since 2021. We are at a point where our holdings are increasing but the value is increasing exponentially. This is a company that has provided the IDF with the resources to conduct its genocide. Is Ireland still investing in that company? Are there plans to divest from that company?

This issue has been raised for many years. We have a new finance Minister. I would like a bit of straight talking from this finance Minister about his position. We are all appalled by the genocide that we have seen before our eyes with 70,000 people slaughtered. Deputy Carthy talked about one company. When accusations were put to the CEO of that company that his equipment was involved in the killing of Palestinians in Gaza, he said that is true. The UN human rights report stated that the company had provided defence infrastructure, military software and AI that allows automated decision-making, so it is using AI to automate the slaughter of Palestinians. Sometimes there is not much we can do about that. We can raise our voice, have sanctions and so on but one thing we can do is not invest in the company that is proudly associated with the IDF and the genocide in Palestine. That is what we need to do. Deputy Harris is a new Minister. I want him to state clearly to the House whether he believes that taxpayers' money should be invested in companies like that. There are many companies across the world that our money could be invested in. The NTMA does a good job but surely to God the Tánaiste can make a statement here that any other decent Irish person would have no problem with. Do not invest in companies that are involved in supporting genocide.

When the Deputy uses words like "any other decent Irish person", I am not sure whether he is trying to suggest that we are indecent or to vilify.

I am hoping the Tánaiste would make the statement and join the rest.

I am wondering because the Deputy uses these loaded comments to suggest that he is decent and we are not.

It is not decent to invest in genocide. I am clear that it is not decent to invest in genocide and I think the Tánaiste would be stretching it to suggest-----

Deputy Doherty, the Tánaiste, without interruption please.

Do not shout me down. I do not know how long this bully-boy routine of shouting me down is going to go on but if the Deputy could just ask me a question and allow me to answer it, it is how a democracy works. Stop shouting me down. It is a bit of basic respect.

I am not shouting the Tánaiste down. I am just telling him it is not decent to invest in genocide.

The Deputy has been at this a long time. He knows the law of the land under the NTMA Act. Does he accept that the NTMA Act allows ISIF full independence in relation to its investment decisions? Does the Deputy accept that the Minister for Finance-----

I accept that the Minister for Finance-----

No, I am sorry, I am speaking. Then I will sit down and the Deputy can speak.

The Tánaiste is asking questions.

I am asking them rhetorically of the Chair.

The Tánaiste, without interruption please.

Does Dáil Éireann understand that under the NTMA Acts, the investment decisions of ISIF are completely and utterly independent? Deputy Doherty tried to do this to my predecessor, suggesting that he was making decisions in relation to it. It was not true then and it is not going to be true now. The Deputy is not going to do it to me. If the Deputy wants to bring forward legislative proposals to change things, bring them forward.

We have legislation. The Government is blocking it in the committee.

We can have the discussion. The Deputy is asking me in parliamentary question time. The second point I want to make, amidst the heckling on a serious issue, is that I do not need to be lectured on how to support the people of Palestine. Ask the Palestinian President, Prime Minister or ambassador how they have found our levels of support. I do not need a lecture from the Deputy. Is it his position that ISIF should not have any ability to invest in massive global companies that have presence right across the world, in many countries, including European countries, some which might even have headquarters in Ireland, if they have a presence in-----

We are out of time.

If they are involved in genocide in genocide, the answer is very simple, yes.

Is that the Deputy's position? That raises very serious questions.

If they are involved in genocide, yes. I think any decent person would say the same thing.

The consequences of that are very significant.

The Tánaiste did not answer any questions I put to him. At least Paschal answered the questions-----

Deputy, please address the Chair.

The Deputy misses Paschal.

-----yet the Tánaiste is giving me lectures on democracy.