2025-12-11

I extend a word of welcome to the Monaghan Women's Assembly and other guests, ach ba mhaith liom fáilte mór a chur roimh Cara Darmody, who is about to complete her 50-hour sleep-out to again raise the scandal of children waiting for assessment of need. Tá fáilte romhat, Cara. Since yesterday, the depth of public anger at the Government's decision to withdraw funding supports for blister pack medication has been laid bare. The reaction has been extraordinary. Pharmacists and carers have been inundated with messages of fear and disbelief. People who have never contacted a TD before have been calling constituency offices begging for someone to act. Yesterday, the Taoiseach at least conceded that he would look at this issue but today's newspaper tells us that the Fine Gael Minister, Jennifer Carroll MacNeill, is not budging. She is refusing to recognise the disaster she is presiding over. Vulnerable people who depend on blister packs are being told by a Fine Gael Minister they will face fees in the new year and are on their own. It is a Scrooge-like response in the weeks before Christmas. Blister packs are not a luxury. They are a lifeline. Tens of thousands rely on them, including older people managing multiple medications, people with dementia or Alzheimer's, and those with intellectual disabilities, brain injuries or mental health challenges. Carers and front-line workers know exactly what will happen without them. These packs allow people to live independently. They prevent confusion, mixed doses, missed doses and double dosing. The human stories coming in since yesterday are stark. We heard from a woman caring for her grandmother whose medication changes constantly due to supply issues. Without blister packs, which she cannot afford to pay for, her grandmother loses her independence. We heard from front-line workers deeply worried about their frail clients living alone, often taking ten or more tablets a day, who are confused over what tablets to take and when. We heard from families caring for loved ones with dementia, who finally adapted to blister packs after enormous effort. They now feel abandoned. One daughter wrote about her 91-year-old mother who lives alone, already battling rising bills, and relies on blister packs to remain safe at home. She said that taking this away will destroy her independence. These are not isolated stories. This is occurring in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis. Today, the CSO announced a rise in annual inflation that is almost twice the rate projected by Government. When people are told that blister packs may now cost €20, €30 or even €50 a month, they simply cannot absorb it. The contrast could not be starker. The Government has found billions for developers, banks and landlords, yet when it comes to older people, dementia patients and people on disability payments, the approach suddenly becomes penny-pinching. This is a political choice, not a financial necessity. The most troubling part is these concerns are not new. Sinn Féin's health spokesperson, David Cullinane, raised this with Government in October, during the community pharmacy agreement debate. He warned that narrowing supports for monitoring dosage systems would expose vulnerable patients to new charges but those warnings were ignored. We now have a decision by a Fine Gael Minister that will increase costs for vulnerable patients, undermine medication adherence, overwhelm carers and potentially lead to avoidable GP visits and hospital admissions. It is a decision that pharmacists, carers and front-line workers say is a false economy. I will put some clear questions to the Minister. Why is blister pack support being removed without any impact assessment, consultation or plan for those who depend on it? Why were warnings from pharmacists, carers and Sinn Féin ignored? Will the Government now act immediately to reverse this decision and protect vulnerable patients from real harm?

I dtosach, ar son mo phairtí, Fine Gael agus ar son an Rialtais, déanaim comhbhrón le clann Paddy Cooney, a cailleadh i rith na seachtaine. He was a former Minister for Justice - I note a flag is at half-mast over the House today - a former TD for Longford-Westmeath and a former Senator. He was a great advocate in the Dáil for the people of Longford and Westmeath and did a huge amount of work to protect our democracy in the face of many people who sought to undermine and subvert it over many years. On behalf of my party and the wider Government, I extend my sympathies to the Cooney family. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam dílis. Ní bheidh a leithéid arís ann. Yesterday, the Taoiseach was asked about the issue Deputy Carthy raised. He gave a substantial answer with regard to what the Government has been doing over the past number of years, particularly in relation to health and social protection for those who are the most vulnerable. He outlined to the House, and I will use the opportunity to spell out again today, the supports the Government is giving to the least well-off and the most vulnerable in our society. He gave a lot of detail on the drugs payment scheme and how it operates. Under that scheme, cardholders and their families only have to pay a maximum of €80 per month for approved prescribed drugs and medicines. This has improved dramatically over the last number of years. The resources the Government has available to it, thanks to the economic growth that has been made available through the financial policies we have pursued, all of which have been objected to by Deputy Carthy and his party, has resulted in us being in a position to invest very heavily in the areas of health and social protection. Last week alone, the most vulnerable in our society saw the Christmas bonus start to be paid out. In his response yesterday, the Taoiseach also acknowledged that for many people, and I have personal experience of this, the dispensing and taking of tablets on a daily basis is something that some people require assistance with. For some people who operate on their own, it can be quite daunting. The Taoiseach outlined yesterday that he believed there is still an opportunity for the HSE to engage with the Irish Pharmacy Union over the time ahead to see whether this issue can be further discussed. On the same lines as what the Taoiseach said, that opportunity is there. He outlined why he believes this is important, the importance of the drugs payment scheme and blister packs, and how they have supported people over many years. The reality is that health now has the largest budget it has ever had. There is €27 billion in health for 2026. It is not an insignificant amount of money. I know the party opposite laid out its proposals with regard to health and social protection and a number of other areas, which did not include everything that the Government included, particularly in the area of social protection for budget 2026, yet it derided the Government for things it did include for social protection. The Taoiseach in his response yesterday outlined that the opportunity still exists for the HSE to engage with the Irish Pharmacy Union, and I expect that engagement to happen.

The Minister talks about spelling it out. I will spell it out for him again. People are struggling with a cost-of-living crisis and the Government does not get that. People with disabilities or care needs are particularly struggling and the Government does not get that. The way we know it does not get that is because there are vulnerable people who need blister packs to get by in their day-to-day lives and to have some semblance of independence. Currently they get those blister packs free of charge and this Scrooge-like Government through its Scrooge-like Minister is going to charge them €20, €30, maybe even €50 per month come the new year. I am asking the Minister to finally get it and get live to the fact that people are going through really tough times and, rather than a kick in the teeth from Government, they need a little bit of support. What they need above all is that the supports currently in place are not removed. He did not answer my question directly, so I will ask him again. Please will he give assurance to those people who rely on blister packs that the Government will not impose these charges in January? Will it finally hear the cries coming into all of our constituency offices for a little bit of understanding on the part of this out-of-touch Government?

Deputy Carthy does a good job of pretending he has a monopoly on people's concerns in this country. The one thing he never mentions is the economy or jobs or anything as to where the actual wealth in the country comes from. I think it is something his party is incapable of understanding. The income into this State-----

Answer the question, Minister.

I did not interrupt the Deputy. The income into this State and its ability to spend money is derived from the strong economy and all the policies to which he and his party have objected.

I know it is a tactic they use.

I am trying to help the Minister wise up.

Sometimes they do it quite well, but they are showing themselves up by trying to shout people down. If they will just listen, Deputy Carthy said a while ago that we have nothing with regard to cost-of-living measures.

Blister packs.

This has been said time and again. Sorry, I do not know who the questioner is supposed to be here.

The Minister has not answered any questioner.

Time and again Sinn Féin brings up the Government's issues with regard to cost of living. I will put it on the record of the House again because the Deputy has already said something that is clearly not true. We are introducing the largest ever child support benefit. We have introduced-----

When is that happening?

-----back-to-school clothing and footwear allowance. We are increasing the domiciliary care allowance and, as late as yesterday, one of the Deputy's own party colleagues asked me to hike up the charge for people's Netflix accounts. Had I done that yesterday, Deputy Carthy would be in here today with the same old cant as always, that we are not taxing enough.

What about the blister packs?

Thank you, Minister. Please conclude.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, the Minister is misrepresenting what I said here yesterday.

If I can answer Deputy Carthy, he wants to have his cake and eat it.

The Minister has misrepresented the Dáil.

Resume your seat, Deputy, and, Minister, resume yours.

He wants to tax everybody and pretend he lives in a world where everything is free.

I did not ask in any shape or form for him to increase the price of Netflix.

Will the Deputy please resume his seat? We will come back to that.

They have both got their clips. This is a serious Parliament.

The Minister should not misrepresent the Dáil.

I am not prepared to join in the shouting match that goes on every Thursday morning.

The Deputy will be on social media now.

Will the Leas-Cheann Comhairle note that the question was-----

You know your place.

Take the Dáil seriously.

I ask you to please conduct yourselves.

I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, and I also thank him for calling that out. I mean, this is Dáil Éireann; it is not Kilmallock cattle mart. Every Thursday we are treated to the same thing.

You would want to get into it yourself, then-----

You fucking muppet.

Excuse me. Did the Leas-Cheann Comhairle hear that comment from Deputy Ward? He referred to my colleague in unparliamentary terms. That needs to be withdrawn immediately. That kind of conduct is not acceptable in the Parliament. It may be acceptable for some on a Thursday, who are only interested in getting clips for social media. They ought to conduct themselves in a parliamentary fashion and respect all colleagues.

We are entitled to ask questions.

It is outrageous.

In respect of all colleagues, I did not hear the remark.

I did.

I heard it.

If there is a complaint, please make it to the Ceann Comhairle and we will have the matter dealt with. We are not going to deal with it now. Make the complaint to the Ceann Comhairle, please.

Today I again raise the issue of overcrowding in our emergency departments. Last week, we saw 14 ambulances queued up for up to eight hours outside Wexford hospital. As a local representative for Limerick, this healthcare crisis is something I know the Minister is also familiar with. In our city of Limerick on 3 December, UHL management once again urged the public to avoid the emergency department as 350 people attended in one day. Last month the Minister for Health opened another 96-bed unit at UHL, which has done little to mitigate the overcrowding caused by decades of underinvestment. This week we saw again 103 people on trolleys on Tuesday. We need a vision for healthcare in the mid-west beyond the next five years, and not just more short termism. At this stage the people of Limerick are living with a hospital in a permanent state of crisis. If we are to address the root cause of the problem in the mid-west, which is a lack of capacity and only one emergency department for the entire region, then next week the people of Limerick, Clare and Tipperary need the Minister to commit to a new model 3 hospital in the mid-west that will deliver a second emergency department. Squeezing more people into UHL simply will not work. Politics and politicians have failed the healthcare needs of the mid-west. As the crisis in our emergency department rages, we have a bad flu season this year. It is a flu season we knew was coming because of the data available since the summer from Australia. The low uptake of the flu vaccine is frightening, and this is something Government has failed to address through an information and awareness campaign to urge people to get the vaccine. The vaccine should be free and it should be universal. We have been saying this for ten years. I cannot understand why we have not been listened to. This is a proven way to take pressure off emergency departments as thousands are going to be hospitalised this year due to flu. It is also incredibly concerning to hear reports that the enhanced flu vaccine was not obtained for cost reasons. As my colleague Deputy Sherlock said, this is appalling penny pinching and it will have serious costs for older people and for scheduled care in our hospitals. We know the enhanced flu vaccine outperforms the standard vaccine, particularly with older people, and this is madness, given the data we have from Australia. As a TD for Limerick and a Cabinet Minister, will Deputy O'Donovan ensure that the health memo at Cabinet next week commits to a new stand-alone hospital in the mid-west, so option C as well as A and B? Will he account for why the Government did not roll out the enhanced flu vaccine and will he commit to a public awareness campaign to make the flu vaccine universal?

I thank Deputy Sheehan for raising an issue that is very important to both of us, the current situation in University Hospital Limerick. Deputy Sheehan was at the opening of the 96-bed block with me and others. He would agree that there have been substantial improvements made in University Hospital Limerick over the past number of years. It is starting from a really low base, there is no doubt about it. Our colleague from the mid-west, the former Minister, Alan Kelly, has referred to this on many occasions as well. The reconfiguration of the midwestern hospitals group a number of years ago has left a negative legacy with regard to healthcare provision in the mid-west that several Governments, including the current one, have had to try to unwind and deal with. The reality is that over the past number of years we have had a substantial deficiency as regards bed capacity in the mid-west that this Government is dealing with. The new 96-bed unit is open. The second 96-bed unit, which Deputy can see himself as he passes, in Dooradoyle is well under way. Planning permission for that was more difficult than we expected. There is an options appraisal, as the Deputy pointed out, that is with the Minister for Health. It is the Minister for Health who will ultimately bring forward proposals with regard to this. The Minister was in Limerick, where she has arrived unannounced. Oftentimes Ministers are criticised for coming to the hospital on an announced basis. She has arrived in on an unannounced basis and has seen first-hand what Deputy Sheehan and I have seen. I do not in any way dispute what the Deputy said earlier, but the numbers in UHL are going in the right direction. Today there are 26 people on trolleys. That is 26 too many. Ideally there should be zero, but it is not that long ago that the Deputy and I would remember that number being three, four or five times that amount. Bed capacity is the route to this. I pay tribute to the staff of the hospital, many of whom are my neighbours and Deputy Sheehan's neighbours. They have had to work in appalling conditions over many years while we had to grapple with the fact that there were successive elements of underinvestment. There is substantial investment in UHL, and I am glad the Deputy has recognised it, but there is also an options appraisal. The Minister for Health will bring forward proposals with regard to options A, B and C. She has already alluded to the fact that A and B will likely continue. There will be more room at Dooradoyle and other units in Ennis and Nenagh will continue to be invested in. The surgical unit up at the Mount is currently well under way and the Bon Secours private hospital is open. Significant investment from the public and private sectors is helping to transform the mid-west. We have also seen significant investment in St. Camillus's, St. Ita's and Croom Orthopaedic Hospital. This is all improving the delivery of healthcare for the mid-west. I am not for one minute saying we are finished; there is further work that needs to be delivered on this. I will come back to the flu question in my next reply.

I thank the Minister for his response. I am glad he acknowledged options A and B were happening anyway because we did not need the HIQA report for them. We need the Government to commit in the longer term, beyond the next five years, to option C because we need a new stand-alone hospital in the mid-west. The Minister referenced staff burnout, which I am very concerned about, as well as staff leaving. I am concerned that the opening of the new Bon Secours Hospital in Towlerton will cause more staff to leave UHL. In fact, we are already seeing it. The Minister represents the region at Cabinet and this is also about him and his legacy. The fact of the matter is, as he rightly pointed out, we were sold a pup with the Hanly review and reconfiguration. We were screwed in the mid-west and are all paying the price for that short-termism. The Minister needs to give a commitment to the people of the mid-west that there will be a Cabinet decision to deliver a new hospital for Limerick, Tipperary and Clare.

I do not need to be reminded of my duties to the mid-west. I have been here 15 years, thanks be to God and to the people of County Limerick for returning me. It is a great honour and I work very hard, not only on my national duties, but on my regional and county duties, also. UHL is a concern to all of us and the one thing it does not need is politics. The Deputy is right as regards the flu. We are worried about the amount of people who still have to get the flu vaccine. The vaccine is the best form of protection. There are many people in hospital with the flu - well over three quarters of the people in hospital at present - who are not vaccinated, which is a concern. I use this opportunity to remind people that anyone over 60 or in the age group of two to 17 can get it free, as can healthcare workers. The HSE has done many campaigns. Indeed, on the day of the opening of the hospital in Limerick, it did a campaign in Limerick to try to encourage people to get the vaccine. I encourage people in the House to get it. I have got it, as I am from a cohort of people who are immunosuppressed and need to get it. I encourage anybody who still has not got the flu vaccine to go out and get it.

Hear, hear.

Taxi drivers have been staging protests about Uber, a billion euro company that is pushing a fixed-fare model onto drivers. They held a briefing here in the Dáil yesterday where representatives reported that this model, if it succeeded, could cut the earnings of many drivers by 30% to 50% and undercut those who do not even use Uber. There will be significant repercussions for the 22,000 licensed taxi drivers, a very important cohort of the workforce in this country. It could also potentially lead to a massive increase in work hours, with the implications of that for fatigue and public safety. Taxi drivers described it as a bombshell. They were very emotional talking about the vilification they had endured on social media, for example, for the action they took in recent weeks. The Irish taxi system was regulated to protect drivers' livelihoods and to protect customer service for the general public. It is governed by the NTA on behalf of the Government and is licensed, Garda vetted, has vehicle standards and a public fare review every two years that the public can feed into and under which taxi drivers have themselves rejected increases. Is the Government at all concerned that this system of regulation is threatened by massive corporations that are not even based in this country and do not necessarily pay tax in this country? The fixed-fare option for passengers can look great in theory. No matter what event happens - a road closure, diversion, toll, crash or whatever - they will not pay more than that price. However, any of the extra costs - time lost or extra fuel - are borne completely by the drivers, and passengers should not be fooled. In the US, from 2018 to 2024, Uber increased its prices by 18% per year. At the same time, drivers got 12% less than under the previous model. Uber gets it in and then ramps up the charges. I do not have time to explain it but the dynamic pricing these apps are using is completely different to anything that has gone before. They are using AI and behavioural patterns of individual drivers. They are following the types of fare they normally take and then sending them fares. They are completely individualising it. The CEO of Uber talked about offering the right trip at the right price to the right driver. Uber monitors work patterns and ultimately monitors each driver to increase its profits. The model allows Uber to sell a driver's time to a passenger for the maximum it can get while paying the driver the minimum they will accept. To pose the question, why did the Minister for Transport not meet the taxi drivers yesterday rather than sending his officials to the taxi driver committee? Will the Government ensure that the publicly managed and regulated system of taxi driving is maintained? Will it ensure that algorithms are not allowed to decide the fare structure in this country or the conditions workers have to tolerate?

The Deputy should conclude.

I thank Deputy Coppinger for raising what is an important issue, particularly at this time of year. We should all be cognisant and reminded of the great work taxi drivers and hackney drivers do all over the country in bringing us home safely in communities across the country, particularly when we are all so anxious to ensure that people do not drink and drive. We want people to go out and enjoy themselves and the reliance on night-time economy workers like taxi drivers and hackney drivers is very important. The Minister, Deputy O'Brien, is on Government business abroad at present. I agree with the Deputy that no one should be vilified for any approach they take as regards their relationships with either State structures or anything else. I would just like to put that on the record. The Minister wrote to the National Transport Authority, NTA, to request clarification on the regulatory position on the Uber fixed-price fare for the information of taxi operators and public reps alike. In the response to his letter, the Minister was advised by the NTA that the charging of a fixed-price fare was in accordance with the applicable regulations. He was also advised that the NTA continued to keep the regulatory model under review. The Minister instructed his senior departmental officials to meet the NTA to discuss the response. Following the meeting, which took place on Tuesday, 9 December, the Minister formally requested the urgent consideration of the matter by the advisory committee on small public service vehicles. That is to take place today. I am sure the Deputy will agree that it is important that these discussions be allowed to take place without feeling pressure from anybody, including anybody in the House. The advisory committee on small public service vehicles is an independent body, established under the taxi regulations of 2013. Its primary function is to provide advice to the NTA as the regulator and to the Minister for Transport regarding taxis, hackneys and their drivers. Members of the committee include drivers, operators, representatives of consumer interests, disability interests, local government, An Garda Síochána and the tourism sector. I hope that, after today, we might have a greater degree of clarity. The Minister is on Government business abroad at present, and I am sure that when he returns to the House next week, we will have greater clarity in this regard.

There are two things that need to happen. The drivers need to boycott Uber, and everybody here - TDs and other public figures - should say they will not use Uber because of what it is doing to these drivers. However, that is not sufficient, because we also need to legislate. Will the Government prohibit the use of algorithms to set fares and will it legislate to prohibit apps acting as third parties in negotiations on the fare between passengers and drivers? I am not saying they cannot negotiate, but negotiations would have to be done human to human. Will the Government conduct an urgent review of the app-based taxi fare models and their compliance with taxi regulations? The Minister stated that the NTA said this was in accordance with the regulations. The apps are exploiting something whereby a driver can agree to take a lower fare from somebody who can only afford to pay, for example, €20 when it should be €25. A goodwill gesture, if you like, for a woman who might be stuck at night and is being brought home. That loophole is being used by these companies to bring in this fixed-fare model. Will Government develop a publicly managed NTA taxi hailing app? Why rely on these massive corporations that are only interested in greed and profit to set the standards for public transport in this country?

The Deputy will be aware that the NTA is an independent transport regulator of the taxi sector. It is not for the Minister for Transport to intervene in the day-to-day operations of the sector, no more that it is for any Minister who has set up, or has under their remit, a regulatory authority, be it in health, my own Department, justice or wherever. It is not within the ambit or the remit of the line Minister to interfere in the day-to-day operations of the regulatory authority. Based on the information made available to me by the Department of Transport, there is an opportunity today, deoxygenated in many ways, to have a discussion around this between the two parties that are critical of it in the hope that they can arrive at a workable solution. I encourage people to allow them the space and the time to do that, particularly at this time of year. All of our towns rely to a massive degree on taxi drivers and hackney drivers for Christmas shopping, Christmas parties and everything else. At the end of the day, I hope we can get a resolution. I am sure that the Minister will be back in the House next week and there will be other opportunities, either in the transport committee or in the Dáil, to raise the matter directly with him.

During the week, the news of the derogation was welcome, but the real work starts now. Unfortunately, unelected bureaucrats in Europe have put in a proviso, because of the habitats directive, that over the coming years, what a cow does in a field and the impact of this on the Barrow, Nore, Suir, Blackwater, Owenriff or whatever other river will have to be screened. This will cost the State millions of euro. I do not know if there will be enough scientists to do all of this in the timeline. There is a bigger and wider problem of flooding that the Minister and the Minister of State, Deputy Moran, will have seen. The problem is that of objections and how the habitats directive is being used to block people. We see difficulties now if people try to extend a port or an airport, build a road or build a house. I have seen young people in my area who are 40 miles from Lough Corrib, but because the Sinking River goes into the River Clare and goes on to Lough Corrib, people building a house in a rural place have to spend €2,500 in case it may have an impact on the site. A few years ago in the Minister of State, Deputy Harkin's constituency, a snail that did not exist held up work on Lough Talt by Irish Water to provide water to 9,000 people or 10,000 people in the area. This cannot continue. It is blocking the Government and tying its hands. The Government has dealt with this on Lough Funshinagh as well. The Government, councils and private investors trying to make progress, be it building houses, building roads or whatever infrastructure, are all being blocked. This legislation started off in 1997, but the interpretation being used by the European Court of Justice, ECJ, kangaroo court, as I would call it, of the habitats directive, aided and abetted by NGOs funded by the State, is trying to wrap the State up in knots. It cannot continue. I commend the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan. Yesterday in Brussels, he spoke about how the ECJ interpretation of immigration and so on was becoming a problem. If the Government wants to make progress on housing, roads or all the major infrastructural projects, then Ministers in the Council of Ministers in Europe will have to get together. We are well able to come in here at times, and Europe will send over more legislation on top of what we have already on whichever item we are talking about.

You should conclude, Deputy.

Europe is always able to add more but no one ever asks whether a mistake was made or whether the ECJ's interpretation has gone too far.

You should conclude, Deputy Fitzmaurice.

Are we now prioritising a snail over people being able to drink water, live in a house, have a port, have an airport or farm their land?

Thanks, Deputy Fitzmaurice. We will now have a reply from the Minister.

At the moment, we are starting on the derogation for farmers but what will happen?

Deputy Fitzmaurice, please resume you seat.

They will drive it down to the ordinary small farmer in this country. Thank you, Chair.

There is no point in pointing the finger at me.

I am not pointing-----

You had a time slot. Respect it.

In his intervention, Deputy Fitzmaurice mentioned Lough Funshinagh in County Roscommon. I know that area intimately, unfortunately for all of the wrong reasons. The poor misfortunate people there had to put up with years of torture, for want of a better word, because an attempt by the Office of Public Works and Roscommon County Council to relieve flooding was held up and objected to. As Deputy Fitzmaurice referenced, the habitats directive was the principal instrument. The Minister of State, Deputy Moran, has made huge progress in this area. This will be one of the first Christmases that the people there will at least have pumps running and know that the terrible situation is not going to happen to them on Christmas Day again. I agree with the Deputy's wider point about EU simplification, and so does the President of the European Commission. One of the hallmarks of the President of the European Commission's contribution to the state of the Union address was the need for the Union to look at EU simplification. I do not believe that it was ever intended that an instrument originally designed to protect the habitats of flora and fauna would be used as an instrument or a method to allow sewage to flow through people's houses, regardless of the town or village where the flood relief scheme was to take place and regardless of whether there was potable water. We all remember back in the 1990s or the early 2000s the situation with the Galway city water scheme. Galway City Council was the first agent of the State to use imperative reasons of overriding public interest, IROPI. The Deputy will know exactly what I am talking about. When there is an overriding need for public good, we can, as he said, screen out things that would otherwise not be looked favourably upon in an application. However, that is a long and arduous process and it can be appealed. I agree with the Deputy about our infrastructure, whether it is in the building of a road or a railway or the laying of a water main, such as the one being discussed from north of Limerick to Dublin. All of these things are being objected to by people for spurious reasons, in many cases. The Deputy knows as well as I do that, as soon as someone mentions the Aarhus Convention, they have carte blanche to go the whole way to the Supreme Court. Many people here do not agree with my analysis or the Deputy's, and that is another problem. If legislation was brought before the Dáil tomorrow in terms of harmonising or simplifying Ireland's interpretation of the habitats directive, I am not so sure that everybody who claims to be on the same side as us would all of a sudden jump to that. Certainly, when it comes to the European institutions, we definitely know that is not the case. In general, the Deputy's point about EU simplification is one that the Minister for agriculture, the Minister of State, Deputy Moran, others and I entirely agree with.

I welcome what the Minister has said but this is the reality so far. Unfortunately, I have lived through a review of the habitat's directive. I was invited to go to a meeting. To be honest about it, I would have been better going home to count the cattle, because I wasted a day doing a review of the habitats directive. You were only allowed to speak for a few minutes and after that it was, "Good luck and good night" and nothing ever came of it. I did that a few years ago after being asked to do it. The sad part of the ECJ needs to be looked at. If I, as a person with knowledge of the matter, were asked to give evidence of the background to something, I would not even be allowed to put in the paperwork towards it when Ireland is being taken on. The Minister talked about all the different places. It is holding jobs up for six, seven or eight years. I understand that this is the first normal winter in Lough Funshinagh and I welcome that. The problem for housing and all the different projects in the country is that we are now at a stage where it is seven or eight years and we are going around in circles. This is aided and abetted by NGOs that the Government is funding. That is the reality of it. Look at the case that is going on at the moment regarding the derogation, aided and abetted by NGOs. We have to decide whether to pull the plug on their funding as well as going to Europe to explain that people have to live and that we have to change this legislation for the betterment of people.

I omitted to say in my original response that I think the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, was not referring to the ECJ during the week but to the European Court of Human Rights, but I know the point Deputy Fitzmaurice is making, which is the same thing. It is about EU simplification. Whether it is in relation to potable water or being able to flush the toilet, it is taking too long. It is not down to a shortage of money. Anyone would tell you that, in most cases, the delivery of infrastructure now has built into it substantial legal fees. An awful lot of the legal fees are being absorbed by cases being contested in the courts over environmental regulations. Like the Deputy, I do not believe that those regulations were ever designed to be interpreted in such a fashion as to prevent people from getting access to potable water. If that is the case, it is time to go back and look at this again. With regard to what the Deputy said about the nitrates directive, this is a good week in terms of what the Minister for agriculture has achieved. It is about EU simplification and ensuring a common-sense approach, working with farmers and people who know and love the land and who know their animals better than anybody, so that they can have a manageable way to do this. They are not people who will go out and degrade or destroy the environment. They want to work with the environment because it is what they derive their income from.