2026-05-21

I welcome the French family. I would like the French family to understand that even though the Chamber does not have a lot of Deputies present, that is not because of a lack of interest. It is because they are busy at other committees and Stages of legislation that operate throughout the House. I commend the French family on being here. It is very difficult to sit through this but it is a good day. I call the Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration to make his closing remarks.

I thank colleagues who have spoken and contributed to the debate. It is notable that everyone who spoke and every political party represented in this House - indeed, every Independent TD - is supportive of this legislation. That is unusual. The reason there is such support for it is significantly because of the memory of Valerie French. The campaigning of David French and his sisters is something at the forefront of the minds of legislators when we are considering this issue. It is generally the case that when there is a human story behind a piece of legislation or when somebody is prepared to advocate from a personal point of view, it can have a very significant impact on the Houses of the Oireachtas. That has certainly happened in the case of Valerie French and the campaign put forward by David and Valerie's sisters. I want to deal with some of the points raised by colleagues. There were some very worthwhile points made that I would like to reply to. I welcome Deputy Devine and Sinn Féin welcoming the legislation. Deputy Devine referred to the Oireachtas justice committee. I want to thank the members of the Oireachtas justice committee for the work they did and the recommendations they made. Very many of those recommendations have been implemented and all were considered by me. Deputy Devine questioned whether a family member should be permitted to bring the application as well as Tusla being able to do so. I think that would be unwise because it would put a lot of pressure on family members and there could be disputes within families as to whether such applications should be made. The legislation as it is drafted at present means that Tusla must bring an application. In many respects, Tusla's function is to get the issue before the District Court. It is then the court that will determine the matter. There is a logic to have a mandatory requirement imposed on a statutory body to bring the issue of removal or restriction of guardianship rights before the District Court. Another issue Deputy Devine raised was whether there should be a specialist unit within Tusla. Fortunately, these applications will not be very large in number. They will still be very significant and very important but it will be the case, I think, that the resourcing within Tusla will be well able to deal with it. Deputy Devine also asked whether there should be a special exemption in the legislation, say, for somebody convicted of manslaughter but it was in self-defence because they had been subjected to domestic abuse. That point was also raised by Deputy Kelly. The reason there is no mandatory requirement on a court to remove the guardianship rights is because there is a recognition that circumstances in these cases will differ and, as everyone has said, we need to hear the voice of the child as well in terms of these applications. Obviously, if there was a situation that arose as suggested by Deputy Devine, that would be given consideration by the District Court. Deputy Kelly raised some issues about section 12D. I will have a look at that. He raised the issues of Tusla and talked about the constitutionality of the legislation. If there had been a mandatory requirement in this legislation that said that if somebody is convicted of murder or manslaughter, they automatically lose guardianship rights, that would have been constitutionally questionable. That is why it was so important to give discretionary power to the court so it could take into consideration all of the individual circumstances. Deputy Kelly also raised the issue of a register of guardians. That is a recommendation which was given serious consideration but, while not trying to disown the necessity for it, it is something beyond the responsibility of this Bill and that would require a considerable body of work as well. Another issue raised by Deputy Kelly was around the timing. Under the legislation an application must be made within six months of conviction. Obviously, that is going to take a period of time. There is going to be a period of time from the date of the murder or manslaughter until a person is convicted. However, in truth, what happens on an immediate basis, if there is a terrible event that happens - a murder or a manslaughter - measures are immediately put in place in order to put a childcare plan in place for the children. Obviously, the guardianship issue can be dealt with at a later stage but there is literally an immediate requirement to find out who is going to care for the children on the night or for the following number of weeks. That is an issue where the Childcare Act already operates. Deputy Farrelly made points in relation to the Ombudsman for Children and Tusla. There was criticism of Tusla by a number of Deputies. I must say I do not think there is a statutory agency in the State that has a more difficult task than Tusla. It is also important to point out that abuse of children and the need for the State to intervene happens not just within areas where the State has responsibility for children but it happens within families as well. I thank Deputy Devlin for his contribution. Obviously, guardianship is about making decisions as to how a child should be brought up. In many ways it is different from access and custody. Custody is about with whom or where a child should be brought up but guardianship really relates to some of the most fundamental decisions to be made about a child. Deputy O'Gorman also recognised that there needed to be change here. He spoke about consideration being given to an interim order. As I said a few moments ago, it is the certainly the case that once a terrible event happens when a guardian kills another guardian, in advance of the determination of criminal liability measures will have to be put in place immediately from that night onwards and that sometimes happens as a result of applications made under the Childcare Act. That is what happens. I will get back to Deputy O'Gorman in respect of the report he mentioned about guardianship. Deputy Butterly also spoke about recognising that it is, in effect, a form of child abuse for one parent to kill another parent. That has an extraordinarily damaging impact on the children left behind. That is why I keep emphasising that this legislation is not about imposing a further punishment on a person who has been convicted of murder or manslaughter. It is about ensuring the best interests of the child are protected. Deputy Nolan is in favour of the legislation but was very critical of Tusla and made some allegations in respect of events happening to young girls in the area. Obviously, if anyone has any information on this it needs to be brought to the attention of An Garda Síochána. However, I do think that Tusla is the appropriate statutory body to bring this application before the District Court. The alternative was to go out of our way to set up a new statutory agency that would simply have responsibility for this and I do not think that was feasible. Deputy Cronin was happy to support the Bill. She spoke about femicide. We do have a problem throughout the world in respect of femicide. We have to confront the problems that this Legislature is responsible for in Ireland. Regrettably, it is the case that violence against women is a problem that needs to be confronted and responded to, not just though legislation but also through education, information and ensuring that domestic violence is recognised as the scourge it is and is not tolerated. Deputy Coppinger spoke about violence within homes and familicide, and referred to Northern Ireland. It is the case that Northern Ireland is the most violent place in the United Kingdom for a woman. If we look at the statistics in respect of the killing of women in Northern Ireland, they are significantly higher than they are here in Ireland and they are significantly higher than in Scotland, Wales and England. There is obviously a reason for that. We need to do research into this because we are never going to be able to resolve the problem by simply punishing people after the terrible events occur. We need to investigate and research why it is that men, and predominantly it is men, engage in violence against women. That is something that requires further research and we should not shy away from it. Deputy Coppinger also mentioned issues about the miscellaneous provisions Bill, but we will have an opportunity to discuss that even further when we are back here for Report Stage.